A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
It's Day 8 of the government shutdown and really no end in sight.
MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Democrats continue to insist on negotiations for extending subsidies that help people buy health insurance through the Affordable Care Act. Republicans continue to say they'll talk when the government is back open. Meanwhile, President Trump is saying this about Democrats.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You want to know the truth? This is like a kamikaze attack. They almost - you know, they have nothing to lose.
MARTÍNEZ: NPR's Domenico Montanaro is looking at whether there's any way out of this shutdown. So, Domenico, with President Trump talking like that, how do the two sides even get to talking?
DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Yeah. I mean, Trump shows no signs of budging here. I mean, aside from his language about Democrats, he and his budget office director are threatening permanent layoffs of some federal workers, even floating the possibility that the government might not give back pay to some furloughed workers. That's something that's in pretty hot dispute right now. And they're moving to cut off funding from blue states for various projects. You know, Trump has been trying to give the impression that congressional leaders are talking, but there's really no indication that that's even happening right now. So it looks more like a game of chicken, with the administration feeling like it can weather this politically and lay the blame at - on Democrats squarely.
MARTÍNEZ: All right. So how are congressional leaders responding to that?
MONTANARO: Well, on the Republican side, you know, they're calling Democrats' demands too much. Here's House Speaker Mike Johnson.
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MIKE JOHNSON: It is a wild wish list, a big government liberal nonsense that we can't do.
MONTANARO: You know, Republicans keep saying that they want to reopen the government and then negotiate, but calling what Democrats want big government liberal nonsense makes a lot of Democrats skeptical that Republicans really want to negotiate at all. What he seems to be hoping for here - Johnson - is really cracks among Democrats.
MARTÍNEZ: So is there any evidence that that even exists?
MONTANARO: To an extent. I mean, we've seen a few who caucus with the Democrats who have been voting with Republicans to reopen the government - senators Catherine Cortez Masto of Nevada, John Fetterman of Pennsylvania, Angus King, an independent from Maine. But that hasn't been growing. You know, largely, Democrats are sticking together because they feel like they have an advantage on health care. Unlike a decade ago, you know, the Affordable Care Act is actually really popular now, and Democratic leaders want to drill home the point that they're in favor of extending ACA subsidies, and Republicans are not. Here's Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer yesterday.
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CHUCK SCHUMER: The bottom line is very simple. We want them extended. They don't want them extended.
MONTANARO: And we saw House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries even go so far this week as to challenge Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson to a televised debate on the House floor. Johnson turned that down, needless to say, calling it, quote, "pathetic and a publicity stunt."
MARTÍNEZ: Are there any signs to kind of indicate which side appears to have the advantage when it comes to convincing voters that they're right or wrong?
MONTANARO: Yeah. It's tricky because polling has found Republicans getting more of the blame, but not near a majority, and there are a lot of undecideds. Shutdowns usually don't go well for the side looking to add things that are not in a bill, like Democrats are doing here. 2019 shutdown, for example, Trump made it about funding for the border wall, and eventually, with 50 plus percent blaming him and air traffic controllers calling out sick, he agreed to a short-term reopening of the government.
MARTÍNEZ: So, Domenico, you look at this all the time. Any way out of this shutdown?
MONTANARO: You know, I - basically, I see three scenarios here. First, enough moderate Democratic senators crossover, which could happen if public pressure becomes too much. Second, Republicans overstep, go too far with these firings and other efforts, get more of the blame for things like airport delays and feel pressured to negotiate now. Or third, both parties reach a temporary deal and commit to negotiate on these subsidies. But it's going to come down to politics and the messaging that wins out.
MARTÍNEZ: That's NPR's Domenico Montanaro. Thanks a lot.
MONTANARO: You got it. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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